Kaine Ward - Billy

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ERinVA
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

Post by ERinVA »

What she said was very constructive, and believe me, she was very nice to him. If you've ever seen her show, you would know that she is a b**ch on wheels with her own dancers (and that's putting it mildly), but they still work their hearts out for her.
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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While I don't pretend to know as much about dance as she does, I can't help but think that Kaine has received lessons from schools and private instructors who are probably more highly regarded than she is. Maybe that's why he was laughing during a few of her comments . . . like he was thinking, "Lady, you don't know as much about this as you think you do."
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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Whether you do or don't like Abby Lee's personality (or tv persona) or not, I think that unless you are a dance professional, making such a judgment about what she knows or doesn't in comparison to Kaine's teachers, who are no doubt excellent, probably reflects more on you than it does on her. I am not a fan of the screaming virago that she is made to play on her show, but I have no doubts about her competence as a teacher. She turns out some terrific dancers.

By the way, the first thing she said to him was, "You're a beautiful dancer."
Ellen



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-George Balanchine 1904 -1983


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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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Stepping into the lion's den here (and had to google virago!) ...

I have followed Dance Moms (and its offshoots) for many a season now and take Abbey Lee in stride and with a grain or three of salt, as reality TV shows go. Also have an itsy bitsy bit of dance experience and lots experience coaching a sport requiring specific motor skills that take a long time to perfect and master so have to deal with detection and correction on a technical basis, both as a provider and a recipient of constructive, motivating feedback.

I think when Abbey prefaced her corrections (standard in dance) with 'you're a beaut dancer' and 'is your choreographer here?' and then concluded with 'I would like to work with you and can fix all of this in an hour'.... well she was telling him that he has great abilities and lacks certain technical skills and performance insights (e.g. Look into judges eyes not mirror, Don't telegraph the roll, Don't wing your foot or tape it) she was conveying the gap between what judges respond to best and worst in America, and the priorities that the dancer was trained under. It all sounded very straight forward, up front, professional, unaffected and business-like to me. She has an amazingly keen practiced eye for spotting stuff for which I would have to rewind the digits and play back in frame-by-frame slo-mo!

I thought the vibe of the music, esp at the beginning, and what the dancer wore didn't exactly convey a particularly strong aural/visual dynamism into the package mix, again based on watching the American series.

Bravo to both the dancer and the guest master evaluator.
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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ERinVA wrote:Whether you do or don't like Abby Lee's personality (or tv persona) or not, I think that unless you are a dance professional, making such a judgment about what she knows or doesn't in comparison to Kaine's teachers, who are no doubt excellent, probably reflects more on you than it does on her.
Well, let's see . . . . Kaine was deemed talented enough to headline a West End show where he worked with top-flight choreographers, and was accepted into a prestigious fine arts school where he's undoubtedly getting some of the best dance instruction in the U.K. Compare that to advice given him by the host of a reality TV dance show. Doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out who's criticism I would give more validity to.

Not saying that what she told him couldn't be helpful, as it was constructive criticism. But I felt like she was demeaning towards him when she covered her face and laughed before she gave her critique, like she was thinking, "Oh my gosh, where do I start?" Her following complement of "You're a beautiful dancer" rang kind of hollow after she had just looked at the audience and laughed. And her comment of "I hope your choreographer isn't here" indicated that she felt like they didn't know what they were doing and that she knew how it should have been choreographed.

You mentioned that despite her acerbic and blunt way of dealing with young dancers that they nevertheless work very hard for her. While this may very well be true, I think that you'd also have to agree that the ends don't necessarily justify the means when it comes to belittling and demeaning youngsters in an attempt to boost your TV show's ratings.
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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Todd wrote:While I don't pretend to know as much about dance as she does, I can't help but think that Kaine has received lessons from schools and private instructors who are probably more highly regarded than she is.
Sorry, Todd, but here's my issue with what you said: To conclude that his teachers know more than she does about dance from watching one video clip where you don't see them working with him makes no sense.

Abby Lee is a magnet for controversy, which is exactly what the producers of her TV show want. Her show is the dance equivalent of Gordon Ramsey's "Hell's Kitchen." Ramsey, for all the yelling and over-the-top behavior on that show, is acknowledged in the restaurant world as a master chef and restaurateur who knows what he's doing, and Abby Lee, for all the yelling and histrionics on her show, is also acknowledged in the world of competitive dance as a well-respected dance teacher and judge. To be fair, the conflict on her show, by the way, is mostly focused on the mothers, not the kids--hence the title "Dance Moms." While she is tough on the kids, as she was on Kaine, she doesn't demean them. She acknowledges that they are good, and she expects--demands--their best, and they respect her for it. But that said, she also definitely plays favorites. She has a "star" dancer in Maddie, and she never lets the other girls forget it, supposedly to push them all to be as good as or better than Maddie.

Obviously, no one forced Kaine to dance for Abby Lee; he chose to do so, presumably for the experience of getting her opinion. Beyond that, he was probably thrilled to have been chosen to be seen on her show that will air on American TV. He knows how competitions work, having done well on "Got to Dance," and I expect he would like to learn how to win the whole thing next time. Abby Lee knows how to produce winners. Beyond that, she knows how to produce marketable dancers.

On "So You Think You Can Dance," Adam Shankman, who has produced all of the "Step Up" dance films, and Mary Murphy as well, often comment to the contestants about whether they would hire them or not. If you intend to become a professional dancer, especially a professional contemporary dancer who wants to make an income you can live on, it's not about dancing for yourself; it's about putting it out there and being better than the other competitors, who are also excellent dancers, at a job audition. And you have to do it over and over again, because most contemporary dancers don't go to work for dance companies similar to ballet companies, where you can move up the ranks, finally becoming a principal dancer, and then possibly stay with that company for years. Each job is a new gig that has to be auditioned for. That is what makes the experience of being critiqued by Abby Lee an important one. Her purpose is not to demean, but to toughen the dancers that she deems good enough. And she clearly said he is good enough. And I would just be willing to bet that his teachers, after watching the video and hearing what she had to say, would probably say to him, "She was spot on. Those are things you can improve."

All that said, the world of dance competitions is apparently a much bigger thing in the US than it is in the UK (ballroom aside) . But dancers are not just seeking to work in their own countries any more, and Kaine might like to follow in Michael Dameski's footsteps to work in the US. To do that, he needs to be seen by important people in the US world of dance, and this was one step to accomplishing that.
Ellen



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-George Balanchine 1904 -1983


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Eltonjohn
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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Todd wrote:
ERinVA wrote:Whether you do or don't like Abby Lee's personality (or tv persona) or not, I think that unless you are a dance professional, making such a judgment about what she knows or doesn't in comparison to Kaine's teachers, who are no doubt excellent, probably reflects more on you than it does on her.
Well, let's see . . . . Kaine was deemed talented enough to headline a West End show where he worked with top-flight choreographers, and was accepted into a prestigious fine arts school where he's undoubtedly getting some of the best dance instruction in the U.K. Compare that to advice given him by the host of a reality TV dance show. Doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out who's criticism I would give more validity to.

Not saying that what she told him couldn't be helpful, as it was constructive criticism. But I felt like she was demeaning towards him when she covered her face and laughed before she gave her critique, like she was thinking, "Oh my gosh, where do I start?" Her following complement of "You're a beautiful dancer" rang kind of hollow after she had just looked at the audience and laughed. And her comment of "I hope your choreographer isn't here" indicated that she felt like they didn't know what they were doing and that she knew how it should have been choreographed.

You mentioned that despite her acerbic and blunt way of dealing with young dancers that they nevertheless work very hard for her. While this may very well be true, I think that you'd also have to agree that the ends don't necessarily justify the means when it comes to belittling and demeaning youngsters in an attempt to boost your TV show's ratings.

Abbey's not just a 'reality TV host'.

She wasn't critiquing the choreo per se so much as the technical execution of same. Other dancers could have attempted to perform the same choreo and would have been critiqued differently since presumably everyone does the 'same' routine slightly differently, based on their skill level, experience, flexibility, strengths and weaknesses. Whether she whispers that your foot is winged and smiles or screams at you that it is winged and scowls, it is still a winged foot that shouldn't be. Separate the content from the process and it is straight forward.

It seems to me that a key ingredient in many reality TV shows is mix of humiliation with conflict and emotional drama, it is formulaic iow. According to these parameters, Dance Moms and its cast score well. Nobody hardly wants to watch boring uneventful rehearsals and tedious tiny tot dolly dinkle cutesy talent shows / recitals. But add over-the-top drama and the ratings swell. Which says something about the audience-at-large more than it does abput the cast members. Some people thrive on conflict and creative tension. This may or may not be dysfunctional. Depends on your point of view I guess. Plus people I presume are receiving compensation and renewed their contracts. Some of the conflict on. Dance Moms is obviously contrived for the cameras.

When a young actor-dancer-singer is selected by audition etc. to attend prestigious training or be cast in a West End production, they then generally have to be coached and polished and corrected kindly. They are chosen not only for their natural ability and facility but also because they can take direction well and can adapt quickly, absorbing the give and take and ups and downs in stride.
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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

Post by ERinVA »

Not sure if this link has been given before, but Kaine has a website:

http://www.kaineward.co.uk/

And here's his official public facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kaine-Wa ... 6567127540
Ellen



"I don't want people who want to dance; I want people who have to dance.”
-George Balanchine 1904 -1983


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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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Kaine will appear on Gamechangers tomorrow at 9am on Sky Sports.

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Re: Kaine Ward - Billy

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Todd wrote:While I don't pretend to know as much about dance as she does, I can't help but think that Kaine has received lessons from schools and private instructors who are probably more highly regarded than she is. Maybe that's why he was laughing during a few of her comments . . . like he was thinking, "Lady, you don't know as much about this as you think you do."
Its actually possible trainers don't concentrate on some things and an outside look never hurts...especially this one where it's coming from the point of being a judge. I've seen things in the show people do that could be tweaked and made better and never is, they just don't bother too change it. And in this case if all her changes could be done in an hour of work it's obviously minor(yea that came off a bit arrogant but I really think she meant they were minor fine tuning).
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