Language & Dialect

Is the Music live? Where are auditons held?
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htcpt
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Language & Dialect

Post by htcpt »

As we all know, the original (London) version of BETM uses Geordie, a local dialect used in the NE of England where the mines used to be. The UK version of the show would - in my view - be unthinkable if it was performed in 'standard English' (if I may call it that).
I don't know what language / dialect version was used in Australia, I do know that the Broadway version used a 'softened' version of Geordie (as the 'raw' Geordie would be too difficult for the American audience to relate to).

The Dutch version, used a 'specially constructed' dialect, something that is not spoken by anyone on earth. I have not seen the Dutch show, but I am a native Dutch speaker and spend time in The Netherlands every year. I wonder if this 'dialect' could have been one of the reasons that the show did not have the success that it deserved: of course there are dialects in the Netherlands (there even is a completely different language, Frisian), but dialect does not play as much of a role in society as it does in the UK. And therefore, I think the show would have worked well in 'standard Dutch'.Having read quite a few reviews (not on this site, where the reviews by nature are skewed to the positive side), the suspicion that the dialect detracted from the quality of the show has been strengthened.

This made me wonder what happened / still happens to other 'non English' productions of the show? Was there a dialect used in Korea, in Norway, Denmark, Italy or Iceland? And what about the current show in Sweden?

Can anyone shed some light on this? And offer an opinion on the necessity to use a dialect? As I stated saying above: don't get me wrong: for the UK version the dialect is imperative!
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angelenroute
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by angelenroute »

For those in the UK who know the various dialects well, I agree, it's imperative. Here in the United States, we wouldn't put on a show about the deep south while using northern accents. It would just be foolish. Even if you don't put on the particular accent perfectly, a good attempt must be made. Does this change as soon as you reach Ireland though? Is there an absolute knowledge of Geordie vs. Cockney and so on? Whether beginning in Ireland or just in mainland Europe, I would say that wherever the location is in which people no longer know or care about the difference is where the accent can be softened/changed as necessary.

Sean

"Good writers define reality; bad ones merely restate it." -Edward Albee
kport
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by kport »

Just to add a bit to this discussion: Traditional Geordie is more associated with the Newcastle region (20 or so miles from Easington). Mackem is the dialect of Sunderland, which is about 10 miles from Easington Colliery. Sunderland lies between Easington Colliery and Newcastle. Perhaps the 'real' accent that Billy's world would have used would have been influenced by Geordie, Mackam and Pitmatic (also called colloquially 'Yakka'). (Easington Colliery would have been quite insular in 1984, as far as accents are concerned, with traditions passed among the community. The BBC still used 'received pronunciation, which would have seem foreign to most - although I reckon Mrs Wilkinson might have had a go at it.)

Abridged, from Wikipedia:
Pitmatic (originally "pitmatical"), also colloquially known as "yakka", is a dialect of English used in the counties of Northumberland and Durham in England. It developed as a separate dialect from Northumbrian and Geordie partly due to the specialised terms used by mineworkers in the local coal pits.

While in theory pitmatic was spoken throughout the Great Northern Coalfield, from Ashington in Northumberland to Fishburn in County Durham, early references apply specifically to its use by miners especially from the Durham district (1873) and to its use in County Durham (1930). In recent times, all three dialects have converged, acquiring features from more Standard English varieties. English as spoken in County Durham has been described as "half-Geordie, half-Teesside".
Many of the UK's regional dialects are being softened by the effects of modern communication. I suspect the accent of Easington Colliery today is slightly different than it was in 1984.

This may help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVA59EPjV2g
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StevenKing
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by StevenKing »

Even London uses a way toned down version of Geordie...which of course is showen with the Posh Dad scene when they let loose with full on Geordie. It'd be like going full Cajun in the USA, most of us here would just go "huh?". There's a vid somewhere where a true Geordie visits the show and when talking to cast shows how it's possible for us not to understand even one word lol.
Real Geordie
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by Real Geordie »

As BETM is set in a tight-knit community it is essential that everyone sounds more or less the same as each other. I suppose the problem is that in English - and quite possibly in other languages - any “neutral” accent is more likely to sound like Posh Dad than a member of the working class. The way that BBC presenters (used to ?) address the proletariat. It may well have been one of the causes why the Dutch production did not take off as it was hoped it would. I suspect however that it was only one of a number of possible reasons, the theatre location being another. Not sure what the answer is for overseas non-English speaking productions, as I remember reading that a lot of thought had gone into the decision to invent a completely new dialect which nobody in the Netherlands in reality spoke. I’m off to Sweden soon, and will ask the question.

Annette McLaughlin (Mrs W on tour) said in an interview with the Plymouth Herald “ ……… the cast are also required to deliver their lines and sing their songs in a Geordie accent. We're going to Sunderland for God's sake we can't have rubbish accents, we'll get things thrown at us……….." . They shouldn’t be concerned. As kport has already pointed out, Geordie would not have been spoken in Easington, and is not spoken in Sunderland. It is centred on Newcastle and an unspecified (and very much argued about) area surrounding. Any performance of BETM at Sunderland Empire will be attended by people from the region speaking any number of variations of local accents. The performers cannot possibly satisfy everyone. Best just to forget about it and carry on as normal. I anticipate that the whole cast will be given a rousing welcome when Billy finally comes hyem - howay wor Billy.
kport
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by kport »

I recall one regional Equity production in the States, a year ago, that was unique in that its Dad's 'Geordie' sounded as though it was on a circular perambulation of the British Isles....it ranged from Geordie, to Scots, to Irish, to Scouse, to Cockney.....sometimes within one line of dialogue. I kept wishing it would settle on one location, and remain there!

It has been said that an accent can 'locate' a British speaker's origins within 10 miles. That is probably less true today than it was, but I can still tell a Mancunian from a Kent accent, and a Truro from an Oxford accent, when I meet British people visiting here. It is a great conversation starter. (We have a British pub nearby in Florida - part-owned by Corrie actor Johnny Briggs - that is full of wintering British sunbirds. 'Do you support City or United?' is a great icebreaker - and often a pint of Newcastle Brown!)
Real Geordie
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by Real Geordie »

When I was growing up in Newcastle I used to visit my cousins in Washington, at that time still recognisable as a pit village, now greatly enlarged. It’s about 10 miles between the two. My grandad and uncles were all miners. My cousins used to speak a very different dialect to me - to the extent that sometimes we had to ask each other “what was that ?”. Lee Hall was born in Newcastle and the script is authentically Geordie - the words and phrases are all familiar to me. An outsider visiting Sunderland this April will almost certainly not detect the slightest difference in the accents they hear - but the locals will be able to tell immediately which part of the region another local is from.
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Borrobil
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by Borrobil »

It's worth bearing in mind that he villages around Easington were built up from very small villages in the 1890s onwards with miners from all over the North of England (but possibly more from the inland west of the county where metal mining had existed for centuries). The dialects would develop from that melting pot, as the communities were so isolated.
Incidentally a common mistake is to expect ALL the police to speak geordie.
Local police are/were few and more sympathetic. Outsiders were not. Apparently those policing Easington usually came from Manchester or North-Midlands, (despite the song), so would have completely different accents. (the "Cockney s**t" being the Metropolitan Police including a specially trained officers equipped to deal with violent groups which were used at Olgreave etc).
~ Paul ~
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by Real Geordie »

This gave me a good laugh - to be fair his pronunciation is not far off. Top marks for effort

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6A2NqeoNnM
accessmenj
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Re: Language & Dialect

Post by accessmenj »

The dialect argument is just another form of the ancient argument between Artistic Success and Commercial Success. In almost all cases, the artistic creators have to compromise (sell out) in order to survive.

Lee Hall admitted that his life-story involved a bookworm type kid who enjoyed writing stories, and because of that, he was viewed as weird. But he stated that a movie-book-musical about an academic kid would bore everyone, so he changed it to a boy who was rejected because he wanted to learn ballet. For commercial success, Lee Hall had to meet the needs of the public.

Even the London production had to take the public into consideration by avoiding phrases that no one outside of the Northeast would understand. The Broadway production had to soften Geordi even more, and started the reduction of the objectionable language. The American tours were even more aware that many sections of the country would not understand or appreciate the slang, dialect and common vulgarity of the working people. And finally, the school and regional shows often had even more highly modified language.

So it has never been a question of whether the language should be altered, but how much. In my experience, the themes and plots of Billy Elliot The Musical do not suffer with these changes. I appreciate the Geordie and working class language, but I have seen the show so many times that I know all the dialogue. I know that I missed a lot at my first viewing.

If future productions want commercial success, they all must consider modifications aimed at their local clientele. There is no good reason why those who attend productions around the world in their own language should understand BETM better than those in English-speaking countries. A production without Geordie is always better than a closed production, and this applies to Broadway and The West End.
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