Favorite Treble Choirs

[Todd]

I found the information here on the Bob Mitchell boys choir very interesting. Didn't realize the kids who backed up Bing Crosby in "Going My Way" were a "group." I just assumed they auditioned individual kids to appear in the film who could sing. Here they are singing along with Bing in one of the most well-known songs in the movie. . . . .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP-1Jo_dI7M

As for Libera - also one of my favorite groups/choirs - I wonder if one of the characteristics that gives them their unique sound is the fact that they base their style partly on the Gregorian chants that were sung by monks in the monasteries. They've mentioned before that their white robes reflect what the monks wore in ancient times. At any rate, Robert Prizeman - their director who also writes a good deal of their music - is extremely talented and has a knack for finding and molding very talented young singers, most of whom come from south London. I didn't realize south London was such a fertile ground for singing talent ! One would think that at this point, people would be coming from all over the country to try to get their musically talented kids into the choir. The opportunity for travel - as well as exposure from their videos - would be worth it, I would think.

The song that Joe gave the link for is one of my favorites of theirs, as well. Here's another one, showing their creative approach to melding music and visual images to create a very atmospheric video . . . . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umT-G6v5-EM

[andrewcraig]

Question(though I know it's changing), why were there no girl choirs in ages past...I assume because it wasn't deemed proper for girls to sing in church? Sort of like no women Shakespeare actors? Voice wise why'll there is a difference I'm sure that's all it is, just different not BETTER, and probably more difference between boy soloists then between boy and girl singers. I certainly can't think of one well known girl choir, none would have the long history and tradition to be famous. Shame really.

For 40 years or more the Luton Girls Choir was played on radio and I heard them again only a few months back.

I do not know if they still exist, my point was they were very famous then.

[Yorkie]

Question(though I know it's changing), why were there no girl choirs in ages past...I assume because it wasn't deemed proper for girls to sing in church? Sort of like no women Shakespeare actors? Voice wise why'll there is a difference I'm sure that's all it is, just different not BETTER, and probably more difference between boy soloists then between boy and girl singers. I certainly can't think of one well known girl choir, none would have the long history and tradition to be famous. Shame really.

I believe the short answer is that it is based on the decree of St Paul that said women should keep silent in church.

1 Corinthians 14:34 "let your women keep silent in church".

[Yorkie]

Excuse a bout of passion!

I do not wish to do anything either than praise Mr. Prizeman's Libera for what is sets out to accomplish, for it has done so with great success.

But, as one who has sung as a chorister in some of the best parish choirs in America, before becoming a choral scholar at one of the top Oxford college chapel choirs, and a Lay Clerk of the leading cathedral in the Anglican Church, to compare Libera with a functioning parish/collegiate/cathedral choir is like comparing Epcot with the UN: it is a choral style, and not a choral tradition. Ellen is correct. And it IS honest: it claims to be nothing else.

Libera is a choral act/event/group created by the very gifted Robert Prizeman; and a very effective one, but it is not comparable to Leeds Parish/BathAbbey/Romsey Abbey/Christchurch Priory Choirs; all parish choirs that have a full choral commitment bordering on that of a cathedral choir; that are recorded and broadcast as a church choir.

In a previous post I cited the Bob Mitchell Choir, and I would dare to position Libera as the same: a professional choir linked to a parish choir that serves to entertain rather than serve in a church foundation. As an entertainment, Libera is a class act; of that there is no question; but what we see as Libera is not a functioning choir churning out Responses, Psalms, Magnificats and Nunc Dimitti; Anthems and Motets, Masses and Evensongs and Vespers and Complines day in and day out, come wind, rain or no congregation, all for the Glory of God and little pay............which is why I take a little exception at those choirs that do this as being, well, tossed aside as being humdrum compared to Libera.

God Bless Libera, and God Bless the Cathedral and Collegiate and Parish Choirs that carry on day in and day out, with little fanfare, doing their duty, as expected of them.

This following BBC video is forty years old (though it looks fresh enough to be filmed yesterday) and was filmed when I first sang as there as a lay clerk: these faces are now fathers; doctors; famous composers and conductors and ordinary men. I recall one cold January Evensong taken by the Archbishop, at which the choir sang with just two ladies in the congregation; one of these boys asked Archbishop Ramsay: 'Sir, why do we bother, if no one comes?" to which he replied: "We do it because they could not be here". It is a duty, not an 'entertainment'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVC3EB7yXlM

To me these boys sing this with as much vigour and commitment and passion as any choir anywhere at any time - and they knew WHY they were there. So please.....let us enjoy Libera, and the others serving in quires and places where they sing, for what they are, and not try to compare them with each other, for they are not comparable.

You can't compare the style of Libera to a traditional choir I agree but you are being slightly unfair on Libera to assume they don't perform the same function as other choirs in the act of worship. Every Sunday the Libera boys make up the Treble line of the St Philip's choir, joined by the mens voices most of whom are former members of Libera. They sing at Eucharist & Evensong which would be indistinguishable from those performed at any other High Anglican cathedral or college. Usually to a congregation of 1 man and his dog. Those Libera boys earn their respect too.....

I also love traditional choirs too and attend services when I can. Current favourite choir is New College but I'm rather fearful of what will happen next year....what choir did you sing with Bill?

[Rich B]

Every Sunday the Libera boys make up the Treble line of the St Philip's choir, joined by the mens voices most of whom are former members of Libera. They sing at Eucharist & Evensong which would be indistinguishable from those performed at any other High Anglican cathedral or college. Usually to a congregation of 1 man and his dog.

That brings back a memory. I remember about 4 - 5 years ago having a 'private' Evensong. The Vicar thanked me for attending. I asked him if they would still sing if no one attended and he said absolutely!

[Borrobil]

... St Paul that said women should keep silent in church.

1 Corinthians 14:34 "let your women keep silent in church".

I'm no theologian, but that would stop all women singing in church. (I think it has more to do with restricting women's opinions being expressed which was politically correct at the time as women then were considered uneducated)

I'm guessing that the predominance of boy only choirs is a hang over of the boarding school system where the "best" schools were set up with endowments for boys of elite families. As most to the oldest choir schools are boarding and set up by endowments it was inevitable they would cater for boys.

[kport]

Excuse a bout of passion!

I do not wish to do anything either than praise Mr. Prizeman's Libera for what is sets out to accomplish, for it has done so with great success.

But, as one who has sung as a chorister in some of the best parish choirs in America, before becoming a choral scholar at one of the top Oxford college chapel choirs, and a Lay Clerk of the leading cathedral in the Anglican Church, to compare Libera with a functioning parish/collegiate/cathedral choir is like comparing Epcot with the UN: it is a choral style, and not a choral tradition. Ellen is correct. And it IS honest: it claims to be nothing else.

Libera is a choral act/event/group created by the very gifted Robert Prizeman; and a very effective one, but it is not comparable to Leeds Parish/BathAbbey/Romsey Abbey/Christchurch Priory Choirs; all parish choirs that have a full choral commitment bordering on that of a cathedral choir; that are recorded and broadcast as a church choir.

In a previous post I cited the Bob Mitchell Choir, and I would dare to position Libera as the same: a professional choir linked to a parish choir that serves to entertain rather than serve in a church foundation. As an entertainment, Libera is a class act; of that there is no question; but what we see as Libera is not a functioning choir churning out Responses, Psalms, Magnificats and Nunc Dimitti; Anthems and Motets, Masses and Evensongs and Vespers and Complines day in and day out, come wind, rain or no congregation, all for the Glory of God and little pay............which is why I take a little exception at those choirs that do this as being, well, tossed aside as being humdrum compared to Libera.

God Bless Libera, and God Bless the Cathedral and Collegiate and Parish Choirs that carry on day in and day out, with little fanfare, doing their duty, as expected of them.

This following BBC video is forty years old (though it looks fresh enough to be filmed yesterday) and was filmed when I first sang as there as a lay clerk: these faces are now fathers; doctors; famous composers and conductors and ordinary men. I recall one cold January Evensong taken by the Archbishop, at which the choir sang with just two ladies in the congregation; one of these boys asked Archbishop Ramsay: 'Sir, why do we bother, if no one comes?" to which he replied: "We do it because they could not be here". It is a duty, not an 'entertainment'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVC3EB7yXlM

To me these boys sing this with as much vigour and commitment and passion as any choir anywhere at any time - and they knew WHY they were there. So please.....let us enjoy Libera, and the others serving in quires and places where they sing, for what they are, and not try to compare them with each other, for they are not comparable.

You can't compare the style of Libera to a traditional choir I agree but you are being slightly unfair on Libera to assume they don't perform the same function as other choirs in the act of worship. Every Sunday the Libera boys make up the Treble line of the St Philip's choir, joined by the mens voices most of whom are former members of Libera. They sing at Eucharist & Evensong which would be indistinguishable from those performed at any other High Anglican cathedral or college. Usually to a congregation of 1 man and his dog. Those Libera boys earn their respect too.....

I also love traditional choirs too and attend services when I can. Current favourite choir is New College but I'm rather fearful of what will happen next year....what choir did you sing with Bill?

This college choir, Magdalen, seen at the start of this film (I was privileged to be given C S Lewis' set of rooms in the New Buildings my Finals Year) albeit a decade before this movie was filmed. Great days. Do you worry about Mr Higginbottom's successor? I shouldn't; a choir of New College's standards will attract only the best candidate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzSb-PHEMOc

I shall have to pay a visit to St Philip's, Norbury next March, to hear the choir in person in a service setting. It is a shame it does not feature in a BBC Choral Evensong live broadcast.

[kport]

Todd posted:

I found the information here on the Bob Mitchell boys choir very interesting. Didn't realize the kids who backed up Bing Crosby in "Going My Way" were a "group." I just assumed they auditioned individual kids to appear in the film who could sing. Here they are singing along with Bing in one of the most well-known songs in the movie. . . . .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP-1Jo_dI7M

The Bob Mitchell choir also sang this most famous of all Christmas songs - and the boy behind Vera Lynn, Tony Butala, was/is a member of 1950s/60s singing group The Letterman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-IidmcSN8

http://bingcrosby.com/from-the-mitchell ... -lettermen

[Yorkie]

I'm no theologian, but that would stop all women singing in church. (I think it has more to do with restricting women's opinions being expressed which was politically correct at the time as women then were considered uneducated)

I'm guessing that the predominance of boy only choirs is a hang over of the boarding school system where the "best" schools were set up with endowments for boys of elite families. As most to the oldest choir schools are boarding and set up by endowments it was inevitable they would cater for boys.

I'm not sure I understand your point about it would stop all women singing in church - that is exactly what happened until recent times and indeed some Christian churches do not allow women in to the priesthood still (based on???). I agree that interpretation is everything (which is why some people refuse blood transfusions for their dying children) but whether the the reasoning is right or wrong in modern terms, this is the reason normally given for the tradition of using boys to sing in church rather than girls or women.

Regarding the elite schools, many started off with endowments from a rich patron to provide an eductation for "poor boys" in the borough in order that they could sing at services in the church/chapel they founded (at least I believe that to be the case for King's & New College) rather than the other way round - the fact that they have become attractive places for the children of priviliged parents is ironic I suppose, but hardly suprising in the modern world where money goes to money

[Yorkie]

This college choir (and I was privileged to be given C S Lewis' set of rooms in the New Buildings my Finals Year) albeit a decade before this movie was filmed. Do you worry about Mr Higginbottom's successor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzSb-PHEMOc

I shall have to pay a visit to St Philip's, Norbury next March, to hear the choir in person. It is a shame it does not feature in a BBC Choral Evensong live broadcast.

Higginbottom? I assume you went to College of St Mary then? That happens to be my favourite "traditional" choir at the moment and yes, I do have some trepidation with regards to the future.

St Philip's represents what used to be relatively normal 50 years ago and has now all but vanished; a competant, traditional, local choir that exists to serve as part of the act of worship. Only the Cathedrals, bigger churches and rich colleges have been able to hang on to theirs.